Re: [WebDNA] passing a variable in an include - precedence
This WebDNA talk-list message is from 2015
It keeps the original formatting.
numero = 112525
interpreted = N
texte = 93Well, I=92m not overly passionate about this one=85 don=92t get me wrong =;-).. just trying to explain what it was that I posted.Also, I see this =93issue=94 as perhaps more than one issue.. a simple =issue of the inlculde tag vars not being able to be overwritten or =treated like other vars in regards to scope, etc.., and perhapstouching on the bigger issue which is programming clarity in regards to =namespace and other OOP-style programming techniques.=20This =93issue=94 of the include vars not being able to be overwritten =has only come up for me a small handful of times in my real-life =projects.=20So, could this be ignored? probably.=20However, I=92m a fan of code-reuse and scoping (efficiency / security).. =so I=92d like to see WebDNA improve in this area. I=92m also not a fan =of things half-working.. but thatmay be more due to some mental quirk that I posses, and it may not be =important to this language.=20Again, I think programming clarity would be helpful in regards to this =subject=85 perhaps driven by the community=85or perhaps driven by the =WSC C++ developer/s.=20=46rom there (once changes have been made to the engine), concise =documentation could/should be made about it.=20I do know that quite a few developers use the scoping tools, and use the =&var=3D parameter for include.. so if changes are made to the engine, it =would be good to remain backwards compatible as best as possible.=20Or, this whole issue could be ignored. ;-)=20DonovanOn Nov 22, 2015, at 6:04 PM, Matthew A Perosi, Psi Prime =
wrote:> All I have to say is... wow.>=20> So I learned how to use the [include] way back in 1997 with WebCatalog =3. I also realized a long time ago that the include variables didn't =seem to work as expected.>=20> Donovan, your rather passionate POV on this is obviously because you =are far more aware of the internal working of what was supposed to be =accomplished than all the rest of us. Now that you have pointed it out, =I see an _extreme_ value in this.>=20> Clearly what we need here is better documentation.>=20> -Matthew>=20> On 11/22/2015 3:02 PM, Donovan Brooke wrote:>> Okay, one email on this.... have to hit a new website deadline today.>>=20>> In my opinion there *is* something wrong with the way it works now.>>=20>> The include file has an existing *feature* that allows setting =variables=85. and it=92s wonky / broken because it doesn=92t work like =other methods that we have in place for setting variables (ie. [text =scope=3Dglobal]; and yes Matthew, we are not clear on what the scoping =of said variable is.>>=20>> Whether =93you" use this syntax or not, it is there, and it is wonky.>>=20>> If everyone prefers to use Ken's solution:>> [text]var=3Dsomevalue[/text]>> [include somefile.inc]>> [text]var=3D[raw][var][/raw][/text]>>=20>> Over a more standardized solution:>> [include somefile.inc&var=3Dsomevalue]>>=20>> And if you don=92t care that the feature of setting variables within =include is broken, And if you don=92t care about scoping in WebDNA, then =maybe there is nothing to be concerned about here.>>=20>> I had to remind myself why I took the time to bring this up in the =first place. It has to do with contemporary programming techniques. =WebDNA is not likely to ever be an OOP language, but certainly some of =the core principles behind it are important=85 such as code reuse and =encapsulation.>>=20>> [include] was made for code reuse of course, and yes, it does allow =the setting of variables.>>=20>> One of the last things SMSI did when working on the engine was to =introduce variable scoping. It was an effort to bring WebDNA into the =realm of a more sophisticated / contemporary language=85 with the use of =[function], [scope] ([::var], [:named-name:var] etc.. (encapsulation)>>=20>> It is clear to me that it is not finished / refined, and yes Matthew, =it certainly could use looking into and the docs generated / defined =better.>>=20>> In my opinion, fixing the syntax here allows for much more =standardized use of these contemporary techniques that SMSI introduced, =and that have not been refined / clarified.>>=20>> I use it all the time=85 which is probably why I ran into the bug.>> [include file=3Dincludes/BodyCall.inc&D=3Dsome1.inc&R=3Dsome2.inc]>>=20>> In my original test template, I went ahead and did some quick tests. =I tried changing the variable to different scopes in the first include:>> ----->> main page:>> [include file=3Dsome.inc&var=3D1]>>=20>> some.inc:>> [text scope=3Dsecure]var=3D2[/text] [!] ** tried many scope names **>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>> I also tried implicitly setting the scope:>> =97=97>> main page:>> [scope name=3Dsomescope]>> [include file=3Dsome.inc&var=3D1]>> [/scope]>>=20>> some.inc>> [text scope=3Dsomescope]var=3D2[/text]>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>> Basically, I thought maybe =93&var=3D1=94 was being set to a certain =scope that I could =93find".. but I could not find it. All [var] values =are =911=92.>>=20>>=20>> I then decided to try the PHP way by making use of function:>> PHP:>> function includeF($someVar) {>> include ("inc/header.php");>> }>>=20>> WebDNA:>> =97=97>> main page:>> [function name=3Dstartinclude]>> [include file=3Dsome.inc]>> [/function]>>=20>> [startinclude var=3D1]>>=20>> some.inc:>> [text scope=3Dstartinclude]var=3D2[/text]>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>>=20>> The above did not work.. I used to think that [function]=92s have =their own scope defined by their variable name (=93startinclude=94 in =this case), but I now don=92t think that is the case, though I didn=92t =test thoroughy>>=20>> This *DID* work as a workaround:>> =97=97>> main page:>> [function name=3Dstartinclude]>> [include file=3Dsome.inc]>> [/function]>>=20>> [startinclude var=3D1]>>=20>> some.inc:>> [text scope=3Dglobal]var=3D2[/text]>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>> See it here:>> http://www.euca.us/admin/tests/include-bug2/test.html>> (note the use '[:named-global:var]=92 in that link)>>=20>>=20>> I also tried setting the scope explicitly with my own naming, in the =[function] solution=85 but that did NOT work.>>=20>>=20>> Anyway, here is my thoughts on the subject.>>=20>> I do agree with Matthew that a clear set of Docs are needed on =scoping priorities.. but Ultimately, a **PROGRAMMING CLARITY** is needed =first on>> how to deal with these =93contemporary=94 (I use this term lightly, =because this is something other languages have been incorporating years =ago) features in WebDNA.>>=20>> How does WebDNA want to refine scoping and the use of the [function] =context that SMSI started in 2004? That is the real question that will =either move WebDNA forward, or keep it in a confusing 2004 era.>>=20>> Also ultimately, this little issue of setting a var in an include tag =brings up a complicated subject that could involve a complicated =solution=85 maybe WebDNA wants to remain a non-complicated language.... =For you to decided. :-)>>=20>>=20>> For now, if WSC wanted to keep a fix as simple as possible, I=92d =suggest looking into these three things:>> 1.) Allocating the variable setting from [include] to the global =namespace by default. So, by default, you should be able to change that =variable, thus fixing my original problem. (may be more complicated than =that ;-) )>>=20>> 2.) Being able to implicitly scope the [include] tag, or at least =the variables it can set, something like:>> [INCLUDE file=3DFilePath&scope=3Dthescopename&var=3D1]>>=20>> That might further the efforts to address the dissimilarities of =setting vars in that tag, vs.. our other methods.>> >=46rom there, you should be able to tie into that space with the =regular scoping features of WebDNA, for example =[:named-thescopename:var]>>=20>> 3.) Checking into the scoping space with the use of the [function] =context. As I mentioned, I thought the function had it=92s own scope =defined by the function name itself, but it appears not. The main>> idea though is to be able to explicitly name variable scope, then get =to them using our normal methods. scope=3Dglobal works, but it appears =not any other naming works. Maybe this is just a problem of the =91scope=3D==91 param.. not sure.>>=20>> Here is a page on this:>> http://www.euca.us/admin/tests/scope.html>>=20>>=20>> Anyway, I had brought this up for =93discussion=94 because it is was =wonky feature in WebDNA.. that may open a complicated topic=85>> It is an issue that probably only pertains to developers doing more =sophisticated programming.>>=20>> Have a peachy Sunday,>>=20>> Donovan>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>> Here is my original text by the way:>> =97=97=97>> Hello,>> This is meant to spark some discussion.. a bit technical question of =whether the include tag should be changed slightly.>>=20>> Here is my test page:>> http://www.euca.us/admin/tests/include-bug/test.html>>=20>> The main issue for discussion is that when passing a variable in an =include:>> [include file=3Dsomefile.inc&var=3Dsomevalue]>>=20>> You can=92t overwrite the var value with a text context within =somefile.inc.>> (I am guessing it is in a scope-preferred assignment... but haven=92t =looked that deeply yet... maybe this is documented somewhere=85 I don=92t =know.)>>=20>> Moreso, For me, i=92m wondering if it would be more intuitive if that =var only acted within the scope of that include file (level) only.>>=20>> For example in my test, there is an inc2.inc. Lets assume that in =inc1.inc that I don=92t actually try to reset var with 2. In that case, =it might be>> good if the value of var (within inc2.inc) is literally =91[var]=92, =(un-initialized).>>=20>> This question addresses encapsulation for the [include] tag I guess=85 =would we want it, or would we not=85 what are the ramifications, etc..>>=20>> In my test, if we made the encapsulation change, the value of var =within inc2.inc would be =912=92, because I had set the text var above =in the hierarchy.>>=20>> So, two questions regarding the old [include] tag for discussion:>> 1.) Why can=92t or shouldn't a text var be able to override a passed =variable?>>=20>> 2.) What about the idea of encapsulation for the passed variables?>> ------>>=20>>=20>> On Nov 21, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Kenneth Grome =wrote:>>=20>>>>> The main issue for discussion is that when passing a variable>>>>> in an include>>>>>=20>>>>> [include file=3Dsomefile.inc&var=3Dsomevalue]>>>>>=20>>>>> You can=92t overwrite the var value with a text context>>>>> [text]=85[/text] within somefile.inc.>>>=20>>> This is not a big deal. There is nothing wrong with the way it>>> works now. You can easily set the var value before the include>>> tag like I always do, then you can override it inside the include>>> file all you want:>>>=20>>> [text]var=3Dsomevalue[/text]>>> [include somefile.inc]>>>=20>>> And if for some reason it "bothers you" that [var] will have a>>> value below the include tag, just undo it like this:>>>=20>>> [text]var=3Dsomevalue[/text]>>> [include somefile.inc]>>> [text]var=3D[raw][var][/raw][/text]>>>=20>>> Regards,>>> Kenneth Grome>>> WebDNA Solutions>>> http://www.webdnasolutions.com>>> Web Database Systems and Linux Server Administration>>>=20>>>=20>>> --------------------------------------------------------->>> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>>> the mailing list .>>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >>> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>>> Bug Reporting: support@webdna.us>> --------------------------------------------------------->> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>> the mailing list .>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>> Bug Reporting: support@webdna.us>>=20>>=20>>=20>> --=20>> Matthew A Perosi>> Corporate Consultant>> Mobile Marketing Expert>> Senior Web Developer>> SEO Analyst & Educator>> matt@psiprime.com>>=20>> Psi Prime>> 323 Union Blvd.>> Totowa, NJ 07512>>=20>> Direct: 888.872.0274>> Fax: 888.488.5924>>=20>> http://www.perosi.com> ---------------------------------------------------------> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to> the mailing list .> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us> Bug Reporting: support@webdna.us---------------------------------------------------------This message is sent to you because you are subscribed tothe mailing list .To unsubscribe, E-mail to: archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.usBug Reporting: support@webdna.us.
Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:
93Well, I=92m not overly passionate about this one=85 don=92t get me wrong =;-).. just trying to explain what it was that I posted.Also, I see this =93issue=94 as perhaps more than one issue.. a simple =issue of the inlculde tag vars not being able to be overwritten or =treated like other vars in regards to scope, etc.., and perhapstouching on the bigger issue which is programming clarity in regards to =namespace and other OOP-style programming techniques.=20This =93issue=94 of the include vars not being able to be overwritten =has only come up for me a small handful of times in my real-life =projects.=20So, could this be ignored? probably.=20However, I=92m a fan of code-reuse and scoping (efficiency / security).. =so I=92d like to see WebDNA improve in this area. I=92m also not a fan =of things half-working.. but thatmay be more due to some mental quirk that I posses, and it may not be =important to this language.=20Again, I think programming clarity would be helpful in regards to this =subject=85 perhaps driven by the community=85or perhaps driven by the =WSC C++ developer/s.=20=46rom there (once changes have been made to the engine), concise =documentation could/should be made about it.=20I do know that quite a few developers use the scoping tools, and use the =&var=3D parameter for include.. so if changes are made to the engine, it =would be good to remain backwards compatible as best as possible.=20Or, this whole issue could be ignored. ;-)=20DonovanOn Nov 22, 2015, at 6:04 PM, Matthew A Perosi, Psi Prime = wrote:> All I have to say is... wow.>=20> So I learned how to use the [include] way back in 1997 with WebCatalog =3. I also realized a long time ago that the include variables didn't =seem to work as expected.>=20> Donovan, your rather passionate POV on this is obviously because you =are far more aware of the internal working of what was supposed to be =accomplished than all the rest of us. Now that you have pointed it out, =I see an _extreme_ value in this.>=20> Clearly what we need here is better documentation.>=20> -Matthew>=20> On 11/22/2015 3:02 PM, Donovan Brooke wrote:>> Okay, one email on this.... have to hit a new website deadline today.>>=20>> In my opinion there *is* something wrong with the way it works now.>>=20>> The include file has an existing *feature* that allows setting =variables=85. and it=92s wonky / broken because it doesn=92t work like =other methods that we have in place for setting variables (ie. [text =scope=3Dglobal]; and yes Matthew, we are not clear on what the scoping =of said variable is.>>=20>> Whether =93you" use this syntax or not, it is there, and it is wonky.>>=20>> If everyone prefers to use Ken's solution:>> [text]var=3Dsomevalue[/text]>> [include somefile.inc]>> [text]var=3D[raw][var][/raw][/text]>>=20>> Over a more standardized solution:>> [include somefile.inc&var=3Dsomevalue]>>=20>> And if you don=92t care that the feature of setting variables within =include is broken, And if you don=92t care about scoping in WebDNA, then =maybe there is nothing to be concerned about here.>>=20>> I had to remind myself why I took the time to bring this up in the =first place. It has to do with contemporary programming techniques. =WebDNA is not likely to ever be an OOP language, but certainly some of =the core principles behind it are important=85 such as code reuse and =encapsulation.>>=20>> [include] was made for code reuse of course, and yes, it does allow =the setting of variables.>>=20>> One of the last things SMSI did when working on the engine was to =introduce variable scoping. It was an effort to bring WebDNA into the =realm of a more sophisticated / contemporary language=85 with the use of =[function], [scope] ([::var], [:named-name:var] etc.. (encapsulation)>>=20>> It is clear to me that it is not finished / refined, and yes Matthew, =it certainly could use looking into and the docs generated / defined =better.>>=20>> In my opinion, fixing the syntax here allows for much more =standardized use of these contemporary techniques that SMSI introduced, =and that have not been refined / clarified.>>=20>> I use it all the time=85 which is probably why I ran into the bug.>> [include file=3Dincludes/BodyCall.inc&D=3Dsome1.inc&R=3Dsome2.inc]>>=20>> In my original test template, I went ahead and did some quick tests. =I tried changing the variable to different scopes in the first include:>> ----->> main page:>> [include file=3Dsome.inc&var=3D1]>>=20>> some.inc:>> [text scope=3Dsecure]var=3D2[/text] [!] ** tried many scope names **>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>> I also tried implicitly setting the scope:>> =97=97>> main page:>> [scope name=3Dsomescope]>> [include file=3Dsome.inc&var=3D1]>> [/scope]>>=20>> some.inc>> [text scope=3Dsomescope]var=3D2[/text]>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>> Basically, I thought maybe =93&var=3D1=94 was being set to a certain =scope that I could =93find".. but I could not find it. All [var] values =are =911=92.>>=20>>=20>> I then decided to try the PHP way by making use of function:>> PHP:>> function includeF($someVar) {>> include ("inc/header.php");>> }>>=20>> WebDNA:>> =97=97>> main page:>> [function name=3Dstartinclude]>> [include file=3Dsome.inc]>> [/function]>>=20>> [startinclude var=3D1]>>=20>> some.inc:>> [text scope=3Dstartinclude]var=3D2[/text]>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>>=20>> The above did not work.. I used to think that [function]=92s have =their own scope defined by their variable name (=93startinclude=94 in =this case), but I now don=92t think that is the case, though I didn=92t =test thoroughy>>=20>> This *DID* work as a workaround:>> =97=97>> main page:>> [function name=3Dstartinclude]>> [include file=3Dsome.inc]>> [/function]>>=20>> [startinclude var=3D1]>>=20>> some.inc:>> [text scope=3Dglobal]var=3D2[/text]>>=20>> [include file=3Dsome2.inc]>> =97=97>>=20>> See it here:>> http://www.euca.us/admin/tests/include-bug2/test.html>> (note the use '[:named-global:var]=92 in that link)>>=20>>=20>> I also tried setting the scope explicitly with my own naming, in the =[function] solution=85 but that did NOT work.>>=20>>=20>> Anyway, here is my thoughts on the subject.>>=20>> I do agree with Matthew that a clear set of Docs are needed on =scoping priorities.. but Ultimately, a **PROGRAMMING CLARITY** is needed =first on>> how to deal with these =93contemporary=94 (I use this term lightly, =because this is something other languages have been incorporating years =ago) features in WebDNA.>>=20>> How does WebDNA want to refine scoping and the use of the [function] =context that SMSI started in 2004? That is the real question that will =either move WebDNA forward, or keep it in a confusing 2004 era.>>=20>> Also ultimately, this little issue of setting a var in an include tag =brings up a complicated subject that could involve a complicated =solution=85 maybe WebDNA wants to remain a non-complicated language.... =For you to decided. :-)>>=20>>=20>> For now, if WSC wanted to keep a fix as simple as possible, I=92d =suggest looking into these three things:>> 1.) Allocating the variable setting from [include] to the global =namespace by default. So, by default, you should be able to change that =variable, thus fixing my original problem. (may be more complicated than =that ;-) )>>=20>> 2.) Being able to implicitly scope the [include] tag, or at least =the variables it can set, something like:>> [INCLUDE file=3DFilePath&scope=3Dthescopename&var=3D1]>>=20>> That might further the efforts to address the dissimilarities of =setting vars in that tag, vs.. our other methods.>> >=46rom there, you should be able to tie into that space with the =regular scoping features of WebDNA, for example =[:named-thescopename:var]>>=20>> 3.) Checking into the scoping space with the use of the [function] =context. As I mentioned, I thought the function had it=92s own scope =defined by the function name itself, but it appears not. The main>> idea though is to be able to explicitly name variable scope, then get =to them using our normal methods. scope=3Dglobal works, but it appears =not any other naming works. Maybe this is just a problem of the =91scope=3D==91 param.. not sure.>>=20>> Here is a page on this:>> http://www.euca.us/admin/tests/scope.html>>=20>>=20>> Anyway, I had brought this up for =93discussion=94 because it is was =wonky feature in WebDNA.. that may open a complicated topic=85>> It is an issue that probably only pertains to developers doing more =sophisticated programming.>>=20>> Have a peachy Sunday,>>=20>> Donovan>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>>=20>> Here is my original text by the way:>> =97=97=97>> Hello,>> This is meant to spark some discussion.. a bit technical question of =whether the include tag should be changed slightly.>>=20>> Here is my test page:>> http://www.euca.us/admin/tests/include-bug/test.html>>=20>> The main issue for discussion is that when passing a variable in an =include:>> [include file=3Dsomefile.inc&var=3Dsomevalue]>>=20>> You can=92t overwrite the var value with a text context within =somefile.inc.>> (I am guessing it is in a scope-preferred assignment... but haven=92t =looked that deeply yet... maybe this is documented somewhere=85 I don=92t =know.)>>=20>> Moreso, For me, i=92m wondering if it would be more intuitive if that =var only acted within the scope of that include file (level) only.>>=20>> For example in my test, there is an inc2.inc. Lets assume that in =inc1.inc that I don=92t actually try to reset var with 2. In that case, =it might be>> good if the value of var (within inc2.inc) is literally =91[var]=92, =(un-initialized).>>=20>> This question addresses encapsulation for the [include] tag I guess=85 =would we want it, or would we not=85 what are the ramifications, etc..>>=20>> In my test, if we made the encapsulation change, the value of var =within inc2.inc would be =912=92, because I had set the text var above =in the hierarchy.>>=20>> So, two questions regarding the old [include] tag for discussion:>> 1.) Why can=92t or shouldn't a text var be able to override a passed =variable?>>=20>> 2.) What about the idea of encapsulation for the passed variables?>> ------>>=20>>=20>> On Nov 21, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Kenneth Grome =wrote:>>=20>>>>> The main issue for discussion is that when passing a variable>>>>> in an include>>>>>=20>>>>> [include file=3Dsomefile.inc&var=3Dsomevalue]>>>>>=20>>>>> You can=92t overwrite the var value with a text context>>>>> [text]=85[/text] within somefile.inc.>>>=20>>> This is not a big deal. There is nothing wrong with the way it>>> works now. You can easily set the var value before the include>>> tag like I always do, then you can override it inside the include>>> file all you want:>>>=20>>> [text]var=3Dsomevalue[/text]>>> [include somefile.inc]>>>=20>>> And if for some reason it "bothers you" that [var] will have a>>> value below the include tag, just undo it like this:>>>=20>>> [text]var=3Dsomevalue[/text]>>> [include somefile.inc]>>> [text]var=3D[raw][var][/raw][/text]>>>=20>>> Regards,>>> Kenneth Grome>>> WebDNA Solutions>>> http://www.webdnasolutions.com>>> Web Database Systems and Linux Server Administration>>>=20>>>=20>>> --------------------------------------------------------->>> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>>> the mailing list .>>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >>> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>>> Bug Reporting: support@webdna.us>> --------------------------------------------------------->> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>> the mailing list .>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>> Bug Reporting: support@webdna.us>>=20>>=20>>=20>> --=20>> Matthew A Perosi>> Corporate Consultant>> Mobile Marketing Expert>> Senior Web Developer>> SEO Analyst & Educator>> matt@psiprime.com>>=20>> Psi Prime>> 323 Union Blvd.>> Totowa, NJ 07512>>=20>> Direct: 888.872.0274>> Fax: 888.488.5924>>=20>> http://www.perosi.com> ---------------------------------------------------------> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to> the mailing list .> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us> Bug Reporting: support@webdna.us---------------------------------------------------------This message is sent to you because you are subscribed tothe mailing list .To unsubscribe, E-mail to: archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.usBug Reporting: support@webdna.us.
Donovan Brooke
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